Class Thoughts on these Issues...

This is a follow up post, after talking about these things in Sunday School. Here are things that we are all recognizing even this early:

1. We are going to walk out of some weeks of this class thinking different things than one another, and not necessarily in agreement with one another, and that's to be expected.

2. In most things there are positives and negatives, and different perspectives.

Following SS on Sep 27, this is what we came up with concerning specifically talking about the means that Derek uses to address big issues, the churches stance on these issues, and the message that was intended by him in the first place.

Positives:

- At least it gets folks talking about these issues. Perhaps a dialogue that would not have taken place in the same form without this song.

- To some, he seemed to be encouraging love without hatred filled condemnation.

- To some, he seemed to be offering something for people in alternate lifestyles other than their perception of how evangelicals feel about them.

- He tries to emphasize the issue of missions and social justice needed by the church in and to the world.

- He spoke out against legalism.

- He reminds believers that all sin is equal in God's sight, and that all are stained with it.

- He reminds believers that there are no sins that are past God's grace, or that are condemning in the eyes of God once and for all, as if there are those who have committed sins that are past forgiveness.

Negatives

- To some, it seemed that an imitation of Christ was Derek's prerogative in the way the message was conveyed (profanity, etc.).

- To some, Derek seemed arrogant and/or self righteous with the way that his song came across.

- To some it was unclear whether Derek's message was "stop mistreating homosexual people" or "stop believing that homosexuality is wrong."

- To at least me, it still seems that Derek is implying that any discussion on this issue is detracting away from the mission of the church, and so we should not worry about it if we care about the thousands who are dying because we are discussing this.

- To some, it seemed that this was not the way to start dialogue among believers. Derek could have taken different steps.

We all agreed that:

- We are called to all people, the gospel is for all people, and that God is available to all people.

- The clear teaching of Scripture is that homosexual acts are against the will of God and are sin (Romans 1, etc).

- We need a mixer like Derek had in the video to make those cool sounds on our own at home.

I would invite you guys to read this lady's story, I think it is a beautiful picture of grace, and she has an amazing testimony. We will be discussing these issues more and more in the coming months, especially many of the questions that swirl around the issue of homosexuality/same sex attraction.

Darcy's Story

Why I Finally Disagree with Derek...

Some college students in our Sunday School class recently asked a question about the rights and wrongs of using profanity in Christian music and the boundaries for Christian artists, as well as the issues revolving around same sex attraction and the church. I don't think I am necessarily an authority on music, but I think the Bible is the same for all Christians. That being said, I have wanted for a couple of weeks to respond to Derek Webb's new single, and so here goes:

For anyone who knows me, you probably know that while I haven't always been a blind follower of Derek Webb, he has always been at the top of my favorite artists. I have met him numerous times, from the days with Caedmon's Call to when he began his solo career and was literally playing to 20-30 people who didn't know much about him.

So, whatever you read here, the argument back can't be that I am not familiar with Derek, how he writes, what he really means, etc. I have been listening to him for 10 years, and I can still play some of the songs he wrote 8-9 years ago and never released, but because I was a dork and in the Caedmon's Call fan club "The Guild" I got the special unreleased music.

The title of the new single that he has released is called "What Matters More." Here is a link to the new video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC0j6FTg1xU

Now what I write is not meant to be an attack back at Derek, or more name calling and verbal shoving. Whether or not his fans would like to admit it, we have come a long way from the early singles of Derek Webb on evangelism and the church (see his first album "She Must and Shall Go Free") to his current music writing and style. Each album of his has gotten progressively more political, and more and more the mercy that he calls for is lost in the heavier and heavier attacks and jabs he has at believers.

So, not to get too far off this subject, I want to write why I feel that this single is not just edgy or controversial, but that it is just straight up wrong. This is where I finally have heard a song of his and said "I can in no way support that."

The argument of Derek's song in summary is this - "Stop judging other forms of sexuality, instead focus on the people who are dying every day who need to hear the gospel and be helped in their daily lives." The real message of the song that I take away is this: "People are dying without the gospel because you are worrying about what the Bible says about sexuality."

So, that being said - these are my problems with the song and the stance taken by Derek Webb:

1. The argument that because the conservative churches in America are holding to the doctrine that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is wrong, they are failing the needs of the world at large and don't care, is petty and unfounded. His argument is a ridiculous notion, and Derek has no grounds for this. Ironically though, this is the major call of the modern emergent church. If you read Rob Bell long enough you will gain this kind of sense that because we are focusing on some things, we are not doing other things. The hindrance to us caring for and reaching the nations is conservative teaching and Biblical morality (not the idea that moral behavior saves us, but the idea that moral behavior is what God commands us, and those commands deserve our obedience). That is unfounded, unbiblical, and not historical in terms of Christian history.

I don't appreciate the arrogance that Derek and those who would throw up their hands and cheer at this video portray. What makes Derek think that he and his followers care more about the world at large than theologically conservative believers? The largest mission agency in the world is the International Mission Board, a fruit of the SBC, a very conservative denomination. I could name off countless missionaries who gave their lives in dark places who believed the things that Derek condemns in this video, simply because Scripture teaches them.

Quite frankly, I am tired of hearing from people who want to criticize because it makes them feel superior or not part of the guilty party. That is called self righteousness. For as much as Derek has spent his musical career teaching against it, this video in my opinion is a thesis for it (it just doesn't look the way that the modern Christian thinks it is portrayed). Making the claim that Biblical teaching is distracting from our ability to reach people is a lie, and an arrogant one at that.

2. There is no substantive argument over translation, or what certain things mean in the Bible when discussing homosexual acts as a whole. You cannot make that argument looking at Biblical language. Let's just leave the book of Leviticus out of the discussion since there are laws there that are obviously not pertaining to believers in Christ. The Greek in Romans 1 leaves no mysteries unless you are desperately clawing at trying to prove a presupposed thesis. That teaching occurs in several of Paul's letters and is backed up by Old Testament Scripture as well. I am not focusing on any kind of statement about blind condemnation for everyone who has dealt with homosexuality, I am simply saying that the argument cannot be made that the Bible does not teach that homosexuality is wrong. So, Derek's mentioning of arguing over translation is reaching at best.

3. On dealing with the profanity that Derek uses, I know that this isn't a major major major thing. But it is worth mentioning. I get questions about whether or not the Bible teaches that profanity is wrong. In my own life, I have had periods numerous times where my belief became that profanity wasn't as big of a deal, and began to throw words around that I shouldn't. God brought me out of that years ago.

But here is why I think it's worth mentioning. Ephesians 5:4 says "let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving." Paul had just previously in that chapter called the Ephesians to be imitators of Christ. With those things being said, I cannot in any way justify profanity. It never makes my case stronger, especially when trying to deal with spiritual subjects. I know that Derek's thought is probably something like "well, if you got as upset over my words as you did over people dying, something is wrong with you." There is some truth to that, but it is hard for me to feel that his speech is laced with the desires of Christ both in the teaching he espouses and in the words he uses to try to add emphasis.

*Now - so you don't think I am crazy, let me talk about the inevitable things that you are thinking:

- Don't we need to reach out more effectively? Yes. Christ went to the darkest places, and he didn't hang out with folks just to show them some love and hope they would figure out the gospel on their own. We will never help people by trying to keep the message of Scripture from them, but instead sharing it. People need the truth more than they need you to love them. I am not being harsh, I am being honest. They need our love, they really need the truth of God in Christ.

- Aren't we supposed to not judge one another? Yes. But when you look at the Greek of that word, in Matthew 7 "judge not, lest ye be judged" and following, it takes two English words to really wrap our brain around what it is talking about. Judge and condemn. We are called not to condemn people, to leave them alone to wrath, to make ourselves feel better by putting them down, to compare ourselves to them and think more of ourselves and less of them, to take joy in their fallenness. Anyone who has seen Christian web sites such as "god hates fags" dot com has seen that there are "Christians" who condemn with nothing but pure hatred. It has nothing to do with faith, love, or hope. We are not called to do that or any of the things mentioned, but we are called to love people.

That being said, our parents loved us when they pointed out our mistakes in an attempt to help us and to save us from certain things. We learn nothing from Scripture when we turn a blind eye to the world and not try to teach them what God says, not as our opinion chiefly, but simply that we believe it because God says it.

*I have lived with and embraced one person in particular who was struggling with homosexuality who we prayed with and came to us. Numerous others as well I have had friendships with, and had these discussions. I am not an experienced person in counseling or reaching out specifically to those who experience same sex attraction, but I have loved and cared for and walked with several people I care about through this very tough issue. I wanted to say that to make sure that my arguments weren't taken from a cold perspective, or someone who had never walked through these things with anybody.

*For additional reading, if anyone is interested, Randy Newman's book "Questioning Evangelism" offers great insights on dealing with many of these issues in love and truth. He dedicates an entire chapter just to this issue, and what the Bible says and what our response is. Also, for anyone that is in the college class at FBC Welcome, there is a testimony that will be in written form for you to download in the coming days on www.firstbaptistwelcome.org/college.htm from a woman who walked in this lifestyle and had much to say of it.